D&D 4th Edition Announced @ Gen-Con
| ‘D&D 4th Edition’ Announced at Gen Con Online Component Added |
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| August 16, 2007
Wizards of the Coast is announcing at GenCon today that it will release the 4th Edition of its category-leading Dungeons and Dragon roleplaying game in 2008, the first full new edition in eight years. The three core books will be released next summer on a monthly schedule: Player’s Handbook in May, Monster Manual in June, and Dungeon Master’s Guide in July. Pricing and page counts of the new products will be consistent with current packaging. Graphics have been updated, art will be used on the covers, and interior design has been opened up to make the books less intimidating to new players.
Lead-in products, Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters, will be released in December. An April release, Keep of the Shadowfell, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.
While there are changes in play (such as incorporating “epic-level play,” with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as “evolutionary” rather than “revolutionary.” Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles. Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier. Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.
What the company does describe as revolutionary is the method of product delivery, which will incorporate online play for the first time. WotC is incorporating online components into the game through a new Website, DnDInsider.com. Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a “nominal” activation fee. Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in Dragon and Dungeon magazines (see “Interview with Liz Schuh“) for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription. Magazine-style content will be added to the site three times a week and compiled into digital “issues” monthly.
Gameplay features on the Web will include a digital D&D game table, and voice chat and text messaging, to allow online players to communicate with each other. The online play is designed to “supplement, not replace” meatspace play.
The Open Gaming License will continue as it has in the past, allowing the use of the rules in other publishers’ games.
Work on the new edition began in 2005, with the major work all accomplished in the last year.
D&D products released between now and the launch of 4th Edition will fall into three groups. Edition-proof products (which are mostly story) will not include mechanics that are edition-specific. Some products will be “enhanced” to 4th Edition mechanics after release through DnDInsider, and a couple of series will end as 3.5 products.
The setting for the core books are campaign neutral. Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting to be updated (in August 2008). Other campaign settings will be updated at a rate of one per year.
Marketing support will initially focus on migrating the existing player base, and then move to an acquisition strategy to re-activate lapsed players and acquire new ones. Midnight launch parties will be used to kick off sales of the first new release in May. |
Popularity: 100%
August 16th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
not gonna pay for any more editions
August 16th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
Woot - can’t wait!
I enjoy changes like this. 3E was a great step but there is room for improvement as discussed in our podcast, In the Garage at http://rustmonster.net/in-the-garage/.
Looking forward to more details.
August 16th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
This better be compatible with 3.5 because there is no way I’m shelling out all that cash for more books.
August 16th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
I want the Dragon back and not DnDInsider.com.
August 17th, 2007 at 12:53 am
I’m torn. I do understand the need for 4th edition. and the 4th edition will not be a new game, but an imporovement on 3.5 which will make it easier to learn and play.
I’m mostly concerned with them releasing a fnished product the first time. I don’t want to spend $200 bucks on books just so they can come out with D&D 4.5 in 2009!
August 17th, 2007 at 12:57 am
Ridiculous.
If the company was serious about providing quality products for consumers it would be done via some sort of online errata/update system that complemented the already overwhelming amount of miscellaneous adventure/story books. I would be more than happy to pay a fee for that system rather than being expected to pay $50 for a hardback copy of every new book they re-release.
Also be serious, this is 5th edition. You can not expect people to pay hundreds of dollars for every re-released book in version 3.5 and pretend it was just a ‘rules tweak’ edition.
I understand that Hasbro is a business and needs to make money but damn.
August 17th, 2007 at 2:35 am
Does not worth the trouble. Switch to an other rpg system, DnD is a rather silly one if you take a minute and think.
August 17th, 2007 at 2:49 am
Sounds like milking for money to me. Didnt spend alott of money on my current library to switch to 4 just because it makes gaming easier.
3.5 is easy enough.
Wizard is gambling again, and will loose alott of the oldskool gamers with this, just like they did with the changes in MtG.
August 17th, 2007 at 3:42 am
Excellent. I converted from 2nd to 3rd when the latter came out, but skipped 3.5 because it came too soon. For me, the time is just about right for a 4th edition now. I just hope the improvements will be of the same scale and quality as the improvements in 3.0 were.
August 17th, 2007 at 4:06 am
*sigh*
WotC won’t be getting any more of my money that’s for sure. They’ve been milking our money since they gave out 3.5 imho.
August 17th, 2007 at 5:19 am
[…] Details, Nerds [Rustmonster.net] […]
August 17th, 2007 at 5:40 am
I much preferred AD&D 2ed to the 3rd edition, so there is no way I’m buying the fourth. I didn’t play the new Star Wars system, but I read about it, and didn’t like it (bring back WEG D6!).
One more sorry money-grabbing attempt on a dying product.
I wonder if its actually George Lucas who owns D&D.
August 17th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Well, I had a bad feeling about WotC with the 3rd edition, then the supplements, then No Wait! 3.5 edition and the new supplements (hardbound this time) and all the rules expansions… But this should come as no surpise. WotC rocketed to fame and fortune off of Magic: The Gathering. How many editions of that did they put out? Least D&D isn’t changing that fast…
August 17th, 2007 at 5:58 am
Yeah, I’m not sure I’m in love with this either. I guess it’s because I still like 3.5.
If they do a good job I’ll sign up, if not I’ll ignore it.
Also, even if I do sign up it won’t be for a few years. I’m sure as hell not waiting around for all of the source material I’d like to be created, when it’s already here for 3.5…
August 17th, 2007 at 5:59 am
[…] Rustmonster writes: While there are changes in play (such as incorporating “epic-level play,” with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as “evolutionary” rather than “revolutionary.” Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles. Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier. Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords. […]
August 17th, 2007 at 6:08 am
I will be picking up these books at Used bookstores b/c I’m not going to
support the hasbro money machine….having said that…
frustrating but exciting…
I actually have the book of Nine Swords and Star Wars rpg, which as
the article states, is a basis for some of the gameplay mechanics. In
the BoNS they do add a new dimension to the mixture of arcane and
fighting. I’ve been harrying my group with a swordsage of equal level
to the party for several sessions on and off. It’s a very neat book
that introduces boosts, stances, counters, and strikes which are all
renewed at the end of each encounter.
Based on the introduction of the warlock, dragon shaman, Favored Soul,
and other various recent releases I think we will see a move toward
many more classes whose specials, spells, and such don’t run out. The
only thing stopping a party then is their hit point loss over the
course of a day.
Which, if they’re talking about Star Wars mechanics for HP loss and
gain then we’ll be looking at extremely quick recovery times. In Star
Wars you may regain your hit dice each hour. Which means that a
character could be back to full health in a much quicker time frame.
Their offset to this is introducing a wound point system for
characters. Wounds come into play when you get hit by a critical.
You have about a much smaller amount of wound points. Wound Points
take a day for each point lost.
Still though, they could have introduced this all as a variant ruleset
instead of making a whole new edition so soon after their 3.5 update.
A lot of the rules that I think they’re claiming will “evolutionize”
gameplay are in fact already out there for your use.
I’ve house ruled several things from star wars rpg already because it
just makes gameplay more smooth in some aspects.
I have to also say that I think it’s a good move to go ahead and
incorporate epic play into the standard rules. Running a group
through adventures using the new xp rules leads to characters gaining
levels at a much quicker rate. I would say that a group who plays for
4-6 hours a week for about a year would probably hit 15th-20th levels.
August 17th, 2007 at 6:18 am
You know, when 2nd ed came out, I laughed at the people who insisted in sticking with 1st ed. When 3.0 came out, I chuckled over those that stuck with such an overly complicated system. When 3.5 came along I enjoyed the changes so I went with the flow.
But I have spent too much money and time on 3.5. I do not have the energy to keep going. This time around, I get to be the old fart that everyone laughs at because I finally understand.
The game is about imagination. The limits are not in the rules. All the rules are is to facilitate play, and 3.5 is simple enough that my 15 year old brother became a rules lawyer days after getting the system (which is much better than 2nd ed, which took several months)
This tells me flat out that I simply do not need a new system. Good bye boys, I’m done.
August 17th, 2007 at 6:37 am
Whats the point in buying any of the 4th edition monster manuals or the DM’s guide? I’d imagine the differences between E3.5 and E4 on these books are minimal (monsters and magic items won’t change that much. They’ll probably spurt some rubbish about “this version will help the DM to really get into the mindset of the individual monsters”.
If I was going to go over to E4, which I’m not, I’d only buy the players handbook.
August 17th, 2007 at 6:41 am
You mean that there are more versions of D&D after AD&D? I still play just D&D. I bought into 2nd & 3rd edition when it came out, but always went back to just good old AD&D. Making the game easier only makes your market bigger, and doens’t improve the game in any way. If anything, they should make the game harder when they ‘upgrade’ it, rather then dumbing it down to reach those who havn’t shown an interest in the game before. I don’t want those players in my group anyway.
August 17th, 2007 at 7:05 am
We should be all happy they haven’t folded yet, or DND hasn’t been completely assimilated by Hasbro in favor of GI Joe kiddy games.
August 17th, 2007 at 7:35 am
You guys should check out Star Wars Saga Edition. We’ve been hoping they’re using Star Wars to test new role-playing rules. I’d love to see D&D go in that direction.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:14 am
I would have thought all these versions merely result in fracturing of the market. I know there are issues when I come to play with different people now all of whom have been playing since D&D over what rules we all use.
I think the Star Fleet Battles approach has been better where the core rules have been repacked but remain (other than fixes) the same and there are a couple of introduction ways or fast play ways to get into it that are simpler. So people can immerse to the depth of complication they prefer.
Who really adheres (AD&D wise) that closely to the rules anyway once they are experienced?
August 17th, 2007 at 8:39 am
My biggest problem with current AD&D is finding other players. I had a wonderful group in College, but as soon as I graduated the group split up. The game takes a significant investment to play as it stands, and making it easier for people to get into is useful. I’m more excited about the online tools that will be made available, and as far as I can tell, that is the only real improvement in 4th edition that isn’t already available.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:55 am
I’m going to be picking up all the 3 and 3.5 edition books I can before they’re removed from bookshelves. I’ll wait for 5th edition thank you very much. It is too soon for 4th, especially when it seems like 3.5 just came out.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:15 am
… This sounds like a 3.5.5 thing. They’ve sped the rate of editions up, but we’ve gotten a lot of stuff that needed fixing immediately afterwards. Makes the whole thing feel like a beta.
I’m not a fan of 3rd ed, and 3.5 was a pretty sorry improvement (more like a bugfix demanding you pay for the patch)… So while I’ll give 4th a look, I’m exceedingly skeptical here.
Either way, I’m happy with shadowrun and Hackmaster.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:22 am
This makes me very angry. WoTC has been coming out with
several books a month for the past several years and now
they want to come out with a new version. They are offically
screwing over their fanbase like TSR did. My favorite books
are the Expanded Psionic and Complete Psion, I don’t want to
wait for them to update it or screw it over in the process.
This new idea of WoTC is gonna bomb I’ll bet. Some hard
core people will buy the books, but the long standing players
will be lifting a finger in salute.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:29 am
I liked 2nd Ed. And loved the flexibility in
character creation that Player’s Options provided.
Then 3rd Ed came out and it just seemed broken.
3.5 came out and there were few good resources to
migrate existing work to 3.5, the prestige classes
just confused PC advancement and made building
high level NPCs that had depth more difficult.
My biggest problem was that Player’s Options provided
a standard means for a DM to remove racial stereotypes.
And then 3.* brought them all back and you were back
to “house rules”. Try building a sword wielding
Gandalf in 3.*. So, will I buy 4.0? Not until
I see the tools for PC/NPC/Monster migrations.
Besides, according to the info, I’m not going to
be targeted by the marketing dept until the second
stage of the campaign. Hopefully I’ll get to come
into their campaign at an appropriate level.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:36 am
[…] appears that Wizards of the Coast will be releasing a 4th edition rule set for D&D. There was a time that this news would either interest me greatly or piss me […]
August 17th, 2007 at 9:45 am
[…] http://rustmonster.net/2007/08/16/dd-4th-edition-announced-gen-con/ […]
August 17th, 2007 at 10:12 am
As another poster said, it’s really about the imagination, not the rules. If WotC wants to make yet another, simpler edition to bring in new blood, that’s great. There’s no reason established groups should feel the need to rush out and spend oodles of cash on the new material. If you’re unhappy with aspects of the edition you play with, that’s what house rules are for, and you can always poach ideas from the new edition without buying it.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:23 am
You all sound like a bunch of SUV owners complaining about gas prices. If you don’t like spending money on your hobby…GET A NEW HOBBY! If you don’t like spending money on new editions…YOU DON’T HAVE TO! If you don’t like spending money on monthly supplements…DON’T BUY THEM! Who says you HAVE to switch to 4th edition? Who says you HAVE to buy the monthly supplements?
Personally, I’ll be making the switch. Let’s remember that D&D is a hobby, and nearly any hobby has a recurring cost associated with it. But new editions and supplements aren’t required. I actually know a group that still plays 3.0 and doesn’t use any books other than the three core books.
The point is, If you like things the way they are, don’t switch. If you don’t like buying new books all the time then the solution is easy…DON’T BUY THEM!
August 17th, 2007 at 10:26 am
As a d20 Game Dev, I find this new release next year to be utterly bullshit. 3.5 has been a cash cow for them, and to alienate all of the purchasers of 3.5 products, in order to make a few more bucks next summer is going to piss off all of the fans of 3.0 and 3.5, who have collected the books. I smell a big stock market loss, ’s all I’m saying.
Luckily people working on d20 Alternates are keeping the market fresh with new ideas, since WOTC doesn’t know WTF it’s doing.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:44 am
[…] so I’m pissed (is anyone surprised?). At this year’s Gen Con, Wizards of the Coast announced DnD 4th Edition. I mean, it’s not like I play anymore so I shouldn’t be this riled up. But I […]
August 17th, 2007 at 10:48 am
I’m looking forward to the stats for the new monster “Cash Cow”.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:58 am
I’ve been playing DnD since it was Chainmail, and bought all the old paper-chapbook Rules Books when they came out…and then when the now so-called First Edition broke into DnD & AdvancedD&D, I bought all the boxed sets for the former and all the books for the later. When 2nd Ed came out, no one I gamed with ever considered migrating, although I bought them out of curiosity. Same with 3rd Edition. By the time 3.5 came out, everyone I knew (over the age of 18) was still using AD&D 1st Ed with House Rules. Basically the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid!) premise has always prevailed over stacks of lexicons and codexs of updated rule books to make more money.
Every new generation of teenagers has had to learn the hard way that TSR/WoTC/Hasbro will remarket the game all over again just to turn another buck and make the game more appealing to a new batch of teens. Yet, those who have gamed longer than 10 years learn they don’t need no stinkin’ rule-books or dice or character sheets or anything but an imagination and a talented DM/Storyteller to get their RPG on.
4th Edition will do as well as all of it’s predecessors, but if you enjoy what you already got, then don’t drop it to get something “new” that is really just the same canned stuff re-marketed to be more palpable to a younger market. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Just because Hasbro has a 4th Edition doesn’t mean you can’t still play by CM/1st/2nd/3rd/3.5 Rules.
Remember, it all comes down to what your DM chooses as their word is unquestionable and what they say the rules shall be is what the rules will be. Let no game company say Nay.
August 17th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
I stopped playing AD&D just around the time 2nd Edition came out. If I were to ever go back to Pen-and-paper games ( never gonna happen ) I’d just play AD&D 1st edition. It well lasted for over a decade, and all you need to tweek it is your imagination. All that being said, I am glad to see D&D alive and well even *if* Hasbro is making all the money and Gary Gygax got F&@ked.
August 17th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
The RPG industry is the only industry I know of where people complain when a product is updated. Do you really imagine a company updating and expanding a product line as being a bad thing?! Do you really think a, “create a product and never touch it again” business model is effective?!
As FraterOrmus and others have said, if you don’t like it, you don’t have to change.
August 17th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
What most people don’t understand is something like this will happen about every decade, roughly. It has nothing to do with any other reason than marketing to a younger generation of potential buyers. This is a part of a long term marketing plan that needs to be in place in order for the company to thrive.
August 17th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
[…] web site. The countdown ran out at 6:30 eastern time today (and the web site promptly crashed), but stories are already appearing on the rest of the web. Wizards also has had their 4th edition forums up for a couple of […]
August 17th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Doesn’t really bother me, I’m still playing 2nd edition. 3rd and on is for 4 year olds.
August 17th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
There is a good reason that people are upset. It isn’t that people don’t want new material, or are too stupid to figure out that they are not obligated to purchase the new material. People are mad becasue 3.5 won’t be getting new release material. They want to continue to spend money on products for the game they already bought without having to repurchase the core rulebooks. They want all their supplemental material to be cross compatible, not to wait two years until there are enough 4th ed supplements to be worth purchasing.
People are angry because they bought third edition in 2000 with an expectation that it would continue to be expanded upon with additional material for ten years, like the 1st and 2nd editions before it. Then in 2003 they had to buy all new core books because 3rd edition was too unbalanced to be playable without major alterations. But 3.5 was a good system and so we sucked it up and moved on. Now 4 years after 3.5, we are being asked to purchase another edition which won’t even have the major playability upgrades that previous editions had, just enough changes to prevent easy use of 3.5 supplements.
This is planned obsolescence at it’s worst. They don’t have to have a new edition now to market it to youth. They could continue producing 3.5 material for another 3-5 years and wait to release 4th ed until they can release it with sufficient prior playtesting, supplements, and mathematically simplified mechanics to actually make the switch over an upgrade at the time of release, not just a two year gap while we wait for 4th ed to get up to speed, wondering if this accelerated curve is progressive and we can expect 5th edition in 2011.
August 17th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Time for me to pull out my rod of cynicism +5…
I’ll bet good money that if anyone goes back and looks at the launch of 3rd edition, they’ll see mostly the same comments of “this is just a blatant grab for more of my money”…
Well, guess what? That’s the nature of successful games company who need to stay afloat. Welcome to capitalism.
Plus, for those like myself who have been playing since 2nd edition, or earlier, you might recall that Wizards announced 10 years ago that they would begin the count-down to 4th edition. That would be WAY too much corporate egg on their face if they didn’t launch the new edition, needed or not.
Face it. Sooner or later most serious D&D gamers WILL buy the new edition, or the next generation of players will. The sales might be a little slimmer because of how recent the 3.5 update was (which was semi-needed, but also stupid on other counts), but it will still sell eventually.
I just hope they get 4th edition somewhat right on the first try, instead of this “.5″ nonsense that, while it fixed a lot, took the Nerf-Bat Of Doom (TM) to so much of the magic system, and lobotomized Psionics.
Anyhow, that’s my two copper pieces.
August 17th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
As someone who used to have a fairly high income and could affoprd to buy lots of new RPG books, but now doesn’t, of course I’m always bugged when Wizards releases a new edition which “requires” me to spend lots more money. :/ But of course, that’s what businesses are about. I will say that I LOVED 3.0, but preferred it to 3.5 which had some subtle oversimplifications that I felt moved the game away from roleplaying and towards miniatures gaming (which didn’t bother me about 3.0)…. the primary example to me is the simplified “What this game is about” explanation in the beginning of 3.5, which says basically “In D&D you play characters who go into underground dungeons to fight monsters and get treasure” as opposed to the beginning of 3.0, which says something like “In D&D you play a character in a fantasy world who can do this: and that: and that:… and they list a bout 30 bullet points with ideas of things you might do in a D&D campaign.” This may be nitpicky, but to me it represents a subtle shift towards dumbing things down too much. Apart from that, I don’t like the “up to level 30″ thing very much, because as everyone knows the game SLOWS DOWN LIKE MOLASSES as you advance to higher levels and the numbercrunching becomes ridiculous. But whatever. I also don’t like the sound of the “more clearly defined monster roles” thing, because that suggests to me that they will be dividing the monsters up into some kind of videogamey metagaming divisions, like “these are the cannon fodder monsters, and this is the boss monster”… something which already exists to a lesser extent in those 3.0/3.5 supplements which have “cannon fodder NPCs” and “major NPCs,” but which I would be very wary of taking any farther than that. In any event, I don’t have enough money to buy the latest edition of D&D, so my opinion is probably moot. :/
August 17th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Secondly… why’s everyone dissing 3.0? It was WAAAY better than 3.5!
Spellcasters SHOULD be more powerful than everyone else! 
It’s genre-appropriate, and in my experience it’s only a minority of players who want to play spellcastesr anyway, because “the rules are too complicated”… the fools! 
(And so I totally drift into off-topic ramblings…) 
August 17th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
I’m all for having new versions but WOTC should supplement the cost of those players who owns 3.5 materials.
Like any computer software these days, if the company comes up with a newer version, you pay less for it if you previously own the old one.
So WOTC should offer those with 3.5 versions a substantial discount for moving over to 4.0.
I like the 3.5 system and will not move onto any future versions unless there is a substantial change in gameplay rather then just “evolutionary”
August 17th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Well i bought 1st edition books, they were great but needed work. 2nd edition came a LONG way and was well worth the upgrade. 3rd edition cleaned things up and tweeked it nicely but was only bearly worth the upgrade since so much great 2nd edition material was lost, or had to be re-written or re-bought. 3.5 was a cash grab. an update like that they did with some 1st edition books (twice i think) an errata page for old books was all that was needed. 4th (5th) edition?? gimme a break. the system is working quite well. there are no gaping holes anymore tweeks can be released as a pamphlet sized update if they really wanted. but imho the system is FINE. if it aint broke dont fix it! I have been an avid player for many years. but i will never buy anything 4th edition. I have boxes of stuff that is still just fine and will serve me for years to come. i liked going out and seeing whats new exploring new settings and whatnot. but not when they are making a sucker outa me by forcing me to buy $150 worth of books (PHB,MM,DMG) just to use a new module. I’m done. from now on i will use my own writings and old releases. 4th edition and next years 5th or 6th edition can bite me. And its too bad, cuz i woulda been a life long customer
August 17th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
As both a retailer and a player of Dungeons & Dragons I have to admit that I’m a little conflicted here. I remember when 3rd and 3.5 came out and I had to endure endless complaining about how WOTC was making the consumer buy all new books. First of all, you’re all very aware that you “have” to do nothing. If D&D is your hobby you can choose to buy the new product or you can choose to stay with what you know. You can complain about the cost but have some sympathy for you local shopkeep. We’re the ones that get stuck with all the outdated product. We have to blow the stuff out at a substantial discount, taking a loss. Also any upcoming D&D product is met with skepticism and comments like “why should I buy this when its going to be useless soon”. I’m not sure what my point is here and I guess I want really have a firm one till I read more of your comments and hear from my customers. That more than anything will let me know what I should do. I think us table gamers and sellers of table games need all the help we can get and if this is good for me…I’ll love it. Keeping that ramble in mind, I really do think that D&D (including its upgrades) is a really inexpensive hobby. Really now, the core books are only like thirty bucks each and if you can get eight years worth of use out of them then that sounds pretty reasonable to me. I don’t play any online games but it seems to me that over time they constitute a superior monetary commitment. Oh yeah add six bucks for dice to the cost.
August 17th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
this is immensely inconvenient for me, as a dm. i dont want to buy new books. ive spent easily $400 on my book collection and im sure others have spent a like amount. if they dont release any more 3.5 books then at the very least they could continue with 3.5 web supplements. wotc wouldnt need to spend money printing new material- just make it available for dl. id be perfectly happy paying as small annual fee to have access to these supplements as long as the content was equivalent to the content, volume, and depth of the current suplements.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:05 am
As someone who just at the start of this year finally got into D&D through the encouragement of my gaming friends, i’m in the rather cliched position of being slightly enthused by this new edition. Personally with such a system encouraging a faster start-up/more accessable approach, i’m 100% behind it as basically i’m terrible at D&D without my D&D friends, so without them around I would never think to be able to start a session with my other friends who have never touched it.
This system however, from what it sounds like, will allow people like myself to buy it and throw it out as a true option when it comes to game time. As some have pointed out it seems very more game like, and I suppose at this stage thats all I want. If one day I want more, well shit, not to hard to use eBay for some old editions. The online support as well was very needed in my view and I look forward to it as well instead of just AIM/Open RPG/etc.
Color me a level 3 novice that will, regardless of what everyone says, be buying my first books come next year.
August 18th, 2007 at 6:56 am
Jesus, you cheap ass pansies. Listen to you whine about paying for a new release to an aging game. It’s been 8 years since 3.5 and you call it money grubbing? Sounds more like they’ve actually spent the time to put some thought into it. Bunch of cry babies.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Well, D&D 4th Ed sounds interesting, but I’ll stick with my ALTERNITY, thank you.
(Alternityrpg.net, check it out)
August 18th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I feel sorry for the retailers who are freshly stocked up on doomed 3.5 material. I wouldn’t do a blow out sale though. You never know if the masses reject 4.0, the prices on old 3.5 material could go UP as people try to grab things before they go out of print. What I don’t like about the new rules is they appear to be cleverly reverse engineered to draw players into a D&D MMORG and monthly subscription. This is bad for players, bad for the game and death to the retailers.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
I agree. My biggest concern, as a retailer, is WOTC’s apparent desire to push its online gaming agenda. They want us to sell products that promote their online games (like Magic). My hope is that by having a virtual table more people will have access to D&D and will purchase the physical books from their local hobby store (ask us about getting a credit for your old core books). I know I have a lot of people walking through my doors that would like to play D&D but have trouble finding a group. I may be naive but I’m excited about 4th edition (I can’t help it…I love the game) but maybe a little bit wary of its consequences.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:37 am
pc — “Pulling out my +3 Credit Card, I invoke a Purchase spell!”
dm — “Roll.”
pc — *rolls a d20* –
dm — “Whoa!” *take a swig of diet soda* “You need to roll better than e^3 on 3d7+pi/2! Remember? We’re using the 7.215 rules tonight.”
Rules. They’re GUIDELINES, people. Yes, I played when the 1st came out (and back when it was Chainmail), and I liked 3.0, but preferred the 3.5 system for “modern play” with some of the newer vintage players, but for pick up games, I can still wield my tomes of Rainy Saturday Afternoon RPGing.
I think I might finish out my 3.5 collection, and see what will make some of the more esoteric, but nifty, 3.0 books easier to index, but other than Advanced Squad Leader, no system should require you to retain a paralegal to execute any action within the context of a game.
Writing a deposition to support why my Wizard uses Jingaberries instead of FissleRoot for a Levitate Fluffy Animals spell is just not fun.
And this should be about fun.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
More new books? Some of us old gamers who went to college in the early 1980s still use our old books (none more recent than 1985). We get together to play only once every 18 months or so, and we know it’s not necessary to have all the latest books, rules, etc. To those who want the new books, go ahead and buy them. Some of us have a great time playing it “old school.”
August 19th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Holy Cloak of Flaming + 5, Batman!
4th Edition will prove only one thing. D&D has the tenacity to continue. I’ll most definitely take a look at them when they come out. If they turn out to be a 3.5.5 I’ll just put them back on the shelf and buy some of the older 3.5 books before they’re not there anymore. If the system changes enough stuff and I find it isn’t too stupid of a change I’ll buy them. I think that WotC has as much going well for them with this edition as they have that can go bad.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
[…] looks like a whole new set of books will need to be bought soon with the up-coming release of D&D 4.0 in May […]
August 19th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Well i’ve been playing DnD from the Start and have a really good gaming group, most were’ shocked to hear this info , just wait till i tell my mat WES , he spent nearly $1000 Aust last week on new 3.5 books. I already have my collection and don’t want to spend thousands again and again to update.
i think i will grab a pdf copy when it comes out and steal some ideas and house rule them into my 3.5 Game oh and i’ll provide my players a copy of the house rules for free! , Thanks Gary for inventing the Game ,TSR for expanding it and Wizards for Stuffing it. Wizards my bold stays in my pockets from now on Cya !!!!!
August 19th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Well i’ve been playing DnD from the Start and have a really good gaming group, most were’ shocked to hear this info , just wait till i tell my mat WES , he spent nearly $1000 Aust last week on new 3.5 books. I already have my collection and don’t want to spend thousands again and again to update.
i think i will grab a pdf copy when it comes out and steal some ideas and house rule them into my 3.5 Game oh and i’ll provide my players a copy of the house rules for free! , Thanks Gary for inventing the Game ,TSR for expanding it and Wizards for Stuffing it. Wizards my Gold stays in my pockets from now on Cya !!!!!
August 20th, 2007 at 7:21 am
i think a lot of people are missing what the biggest concern is about a ‘new edition’ coming out. Its not that we don’t want to buy the new matials. We know its a choice, and one that many of us have made in the past. Its just sad to notice another change in our hobby, when we will see the support for the version we prefer disappear. I think there was much better support in for AD&D in particular in the 70’s and 80’s, back before every release had to be market tested first, and more interesting and unique products were available. Sure…TSR didn’t make near the amount of money as Wizards did, and now Hasbro…but that was part of the fun of the hobby. It was unique. As far as having a choice to upgrade or not? thats not entire true either. The RPGA network has already anounced they will be closing their 3rd edition campaign this year, and getting ready for 4th? So if you are a member ( which I am ) you will have to upgrade your rules. As for my home grown group, which still used Basic and AD&D we will continue playing, AND NOT going to hobby stores looking for support material because they stopped carrying OUR game long ago. Now Hobby stores will see some new sales for new customers, but they will probably also see their older loyal customers disappear and a new group of 10 year olds becoming their primary customer as they move from Pokemon to 4th edition. And I also play Saga, a good system, but never really caught on.
August 20th, 2007 at 10:11 am
As for 4th edition, I think it could be a good thing. If they can make the advances in the game that they made when going from 2nd to 3rd then I am looking forward to it. Really no matter what I know thats the edition I will end up playing because thats how I am built. I am IT and I am constantly having to stay current on the latest trends in my industry. This game is my hobby and I will most likely have to constantly stay up to date with the latest trend there as well. So in the end I will still be playing and buying books at 10th edition in a few more years.
So I say bring it on. Eight years is plenty of time to wait for a new edition.
August 20th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Oh, come on. Stop yer whining.
It should have been clear long since to anyone with a brain that D&D was overdue for a new edition. The detritus of supplement after supplement — each with new rules tweaks and options — have made the game harder and harder to play, as building a character required a near encyclopedic knowledge of the game and options available.
Much of that cruft was rules related — the need to play a charisma-based fighter, or sorcerer-like cleric, or to have spells that do direct damage or whatnot -could- have been handled with some general options and feats rather than many, many, many tiny little rules each with its own chance to break the game, scattered throughout an insane number of books. But it isn’t, and without a reboot, it will never be.
Hopefully, Wizards will do better with 4.0 — and I, for one, have faith they’re trying to.
August 20th, 2007 at 10:52 am
The heart and soul of D&D isn’t the rules, it’s imagination. Not just with the story, but with character options as well. Everyone knows that the Favored Soul is to the cleric as the sorcerer is to the wizard. But my group was playing a home-brewed spontaneous casting cleric before the Complete Divine was ever released.
So what if you lose support for your version of the game. Make up your own stuff! You don’t need supplements. You don’t even need the core rules if you’re really creative. I’d say that less than half of the content in the supplement books gets used anyway, so just make up the stuff you want and forget about whether or not it’s official.
That said, I’ll admit that RPGA members are screwed. Of course, it takes a special kind of person to be a card-carrying D&D player!
August 21st, 2007 at 3:57 am
Couple of not-so-nice side effects of 4.0:
http://www.birthright.net isnt even done going to 3.5.
Same goes for darksun and other fan based material.
I play alott of different rpg games, but dnd has allways been te main chunk. If they want to make more money all they have to do is release less books and increase the quality. I will buy it if its good.
Yes imagination is the number one ingriedient. But it does help alott if both you and your players know the world. All the current dnd material leaves me plenty of room to add and change things with my imagination.
Ah well, I will just have to download all the dnd4 material instead of buy it.
August 21st, 2007 at 10:31 am
I’ve bought two 3.5 books in the last two years. The Spell
Compendium and a Dragon Lance sourcebook (not even the main
one, I just wanted the book on knights). Most of the players
in my D&D group own the PhB and nothing else. A few own
the extra splat books… may 1/3.
I’ve enjoyed books that streamline things I already own. If
I wanted a new system that was easier to play, I’d just use
“roll and keep” as mathematically it is far superior.
August 21st, 2007 at 11:54 am
I have been playing since the mid 80’s, so basically 22+ years..
I am a little different from most in that the last time I bought a book was in 2e days, and my current campaign in 3.5e..
Now you might say HOW?
Easy
Has anybody done searches for all the sites, monster info, templates, classes, PrC’s and published rules … including the SRD out there on the web?
Or made thier own demons, classes/PrC’s, etc.. there is enough info out there that it’s quite easy to do, without having to spend anything on a book…And WotC even prints some official ones on thier sites.
With IMAGINATION and ROLE-playing, you don’t even need to buy books at all…
Is it a cash cow, of course it is, and I agree with a lot of the negative responses about WotC and how they are dealing with the D&D stuff… and as an old MtG Type 1 player, I am disgusted at WotC about that too…
so am I gonna spend 1 red cent on WotC and thier 4e craziness.. heck no
August 21st, 2007 at 7:03 pm
[…] it was time for our warrior/chef (I hear that a new cross class in the new D&D 4th Edition Rules) to go to […]
August 27th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
whyyy?! why so soon? 4th should be my childs game when he
is in high school. not now. But i was scukered into buying 3.5 books all overthe 3rd now 4th? i’ll go to a game out of print that way i know it can’t chnage and has a good system.
August 29th, 2007 at 4:51 am
I like the idea of some new books, a move to faster style of play is what we need.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Wow, what a bunch of whiners. Even if the rules stay relatively the same, an update every 8 years doesn’t even remotely compare to MtG. If WoTC needs my hard-earned 200 bucks every 8 years(2 dollars and 8 cents per month) to keep the game fresh, new and exciting then so be it. I’ve gotten much more than 200 dollars worth of enjoyment out of those books. Put in movie ticket terms, I’ve gotten off cheap. Start saving your 2 bucks a month for 5th edition in 2016. You heard it here first.
August 29th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Alright. When I got into D&D it was somewhere around the time 3rd edition launched. I played with a few groups, enjoyed the game, ect. Then I got into a group who were experienced players, and got to play 2nd and 1st edition. God Bless them. Frankly 2nd edition was fine by me, and it’s my preferred gaming system, though I still allow some first edition classes like bard, cavalier, and barbarian, the latter two being from Unearth Arcana which is what supposedly broke 1st edition in the first place. But in 2nd edition, as now, you are fully capable of using whatever rules and systems you want. I had a group mixing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd together for a while…Rogues with type E poison rule!
You can do the same. Just wait until 4th edition comes out, and you can buy all the 3.5 edition stuff dirt cheap on amazon and used books stores, because of idiots just selling their “old” books. Then go back to 2nd edition, do a little “work” getting the systems to work with your game, and bring back Chronomancy. You know you want to. 2nd level time travel spells…oohh yeah.
August 29th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Most you people are idiots. “Wah, I’m not gonna buy more books” crap is such a whiny waste of everyones time. It was 8 years ago, thats almost a decade, can you guys count?
Also, most of you bitching about the money, know you stole it off the web and printed it out. Why do you think Wizards needs the money? Because of cheap assholes who cop an attitude that the product isn’t worth buying, but its worth stealing.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:14 am
I am just about to update to 3.5. Why? Because most of my
players have already bought it and it will save me time.
Am I annoyed about 4th Edition, hell no. The three core rule
books won’t be out till August next year I would always wait
until I have access to all three), so I will have a year or
so before I even have to think about upgrading.
I have been known, when I was younger to buy a new RPG a week
so three books in a years time does not phase me. I may buy
the game I may not, but that’s dependant on the quality not t
the cost. As hobbies go, as others have said, D&D is relatively
cheap.
August 30th, 2007 at 6:31 am
A bunch of people on here should stuff it.
1) To everyone who says that 1st Edition was the be-all and end-all of D&D just because you happened to play it back when Jesus was alive, STFU. As some have been saying, the heart and soul of D&D is imagination, not rules. Each subsequent edition has made the rules more open-ended and allowed for increasing customisation; all indications so far are that 4E will continue this trend. You can only do so much with house rules; eventually you get to a point where you’re trying to redesign a system that’s fundamentally constraining and restrictive. If you like to kick it old school, that’s awesome - it’s people like you who built the community to where it is today, and I commend you. But if you’re complaining about a new edition just because nothing can live up to the “good old days”, welcome to the twenty-first century.
2) To everyone who complains about the cost of books - it’s not like you’re being asked to fork over one grand in a week to keep playing. Paying $40 for one book a month is pretty reasonable; if you’re hard-pressed, just save up a little or cut some costs here and there. Any hobby costs money, and it’s not like they’re marching you down to the hobby store and extorting your hard-earned cash at knife-point.
3)3.5 does need an update, to be honest. There are a lot of good ideas that WotC had out the gate, but it seems that many other ones were only devised as the game progressed. They can be forgiven for this because of how radical a departure 3E was from 2E. If you really care about the industry and the hobby, you should be trying to reward the company for coming up with new ideas and new ways of using them rather than flying off the handle like this. Even if you’re opposed, it’s not like your 3.5 books are going to vaporise the instant 4E hits shelves.
4)If the company is to continue producing this game which many of you claim to enjoy despite complaining about it at great length, it must make money. All the other systems like Alternity which have their own fan bases or which pick up disenfranchised D&D players - guess what, they gotta make money too. By pushing ahead with new content, WotC is fulfilling a an important role in the industry. Other systems and their devotees would do well to remember, when slamming WotC for “selling out,” that this niche market is in large part kept afloat by the d20 giant spearheaded by D&D, and that market stagnation is bad for everyone.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:16 am
Kudos to the last 3 bloggers. Profit is not a dirty word. WoTC needs to make money…continually, to meet its expenses. I’ve been playing D&D since first edition, back in the 1970’s, and currently play in both a 3.5 edition and a 1st edition campaign. I bought my first edition books in 1979, and still get to use them 2 weekends a month. I think WoTC should be applauded for keeping the hobby alive and moving forward. I’d rather “donate” my money for new core books every 8 years than keep my money in my pockets and be relegated to playing a “dead” game.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Is it just me, or has D&D artwork suffered horribly over the last two editions (3 and 3.5)? It may just be nostalgia, but I miss the artwork of Larry Elmore, Keith Parkinson, and Clyde Caldwell, among others. Some of the art in 3 and 3.5 is tolerable (Jeff Easley comes to mind), but the rest of it looks like reject art from Magic the Gathering cards. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but the new art seems too stylized. Every character has cool tatoos and/or baroque clothing. Maybe the best way to describe what I’m feeling is this: Fantasy art should invoke fantasy. It should not mirror our current culture and civilization. Fantasy is all about escape from reality. If I want to see a “tramp stamp” tribal tatoo on a girl’s lower back, I need only go to the food court at the local mall; I don’t want these crappy cultural trends reflected in my Player’s Handbook. I guess it’s all about marketing to the pokemon generation. I’m relieved that Hasbro has the sense to put cover art on the core books of 4th edition. The 3.5 covers made me want to pull my hair out. That being said, I’m doubtful that the current trend of neo-fantasy art will end.
August 30th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
To me, there is only one question: Will 4th Edition be so much better as to justify the work and cost attached to the switch.
Nobody in this forum has addressed any concrete rule issues - for the simple reason that we don’t know them yet. All they said is some vague “it’s all easier” and “low and high levels play better”. WOTC, you are announcing a new edition? Great, could you please tell me what’s different?
Everyone who thinks 2nd was better than 3rd is a freak. 2nd Ed was FULL OF HOLES, BUGS, AND SHORTCOMINGS. It had fundamental flaws. I had a lot of fun with 2nd Ed, of course, but it’s not about the imagination here, it’s about a RULE SYSTEM. 3rd Ed DID give me the system update I yearned for as long as I played 2nd (with some exceptions, some of which I could fix with house rules, some not).
Now I just wonder how 3rd Ed could be improved SUBSTANTIALLY. Of course there is still room for improvement, but does it justify a whole new edition? What will it be like? We don’t know yet! Let’s wait and see! I’m skeptical, but curious. All I’ve seen yet is the cover.
(All that talk about online play frightens me, though. Who wants that clumsy graphic dungeon crap? Is this going WoW? They haven’t lost a single word about the core system rule changes… maybe they don’t catch…)
As for the money: I haven’t spent a dollar for 3rd Ed due to the System Reference Document (SRD).
I demand that they offer the 4th Edition Core System in RTF-document form as a free download. If they don’t they can go and %*§* themselves.
Even if they do it’s still a lot of work for every DM (reading, understanding, house ruling, printing). Will it be worthwhile?
If you bought many 3rd Ed books, they will probably be pretty much obsolete and it will not be worthwhile. How can 4th be that much better to justify throwing those books away?
Let’s see what they come up with. Let’s just hope that 4th Edition is NOT that much better (if better at all), and we can shrug about it and keep using our current system.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:13 pm
D&D is, by design, slowly shifting to being a far more combat oriented game, and much less of a roleplaying one.
First isn’t the be-all and end-all, I prefer second.
Killing with few consequences, or thought.
My issues are things like grapple being removed, and classes being merged for little to no reason.
September 3rd, 2007 at 10:00 am
Guys WTF, does it matter which edition you started with,
or which you prefur? at the end of the day are any of
our complaints going to stop this? NO!.
its simple if you dont want to spend you money on your
hobby then DONT! but i suggest you stop wasting your time
posting on forums whinging, im going to continue to fund
my hobby because i enjoy it and normally the rule changes
do make a diference to the speed of gameplay, not only that
but it saves time making house rules and making sure
everyone understands them.
do yourselves a favour….stop wasting your breath, its
beyond childish….period.
now that your listening, search for facts about the new
edition and realise that huge changes have been made
so, to sum up….shut up whinging and get a new hobby…
for those like myself who are going to buy the new edition
i applaud you for keeping our hobby alive.
September 3rd, 2007 at 3:03 pm
The dig deal, though, is that 3rd edition was as major of a
departure from the previous set as, say, 2nd was from first.
It put a different spin on the rules, had all new combat
(weapon speeds gone for one tiny thing!), and added in a
lot of rules that had become house rules at the time like
miniatures type combat and so on. We could argue whether it
was better than 2nd pretty much forever, but it was
different. And 3.5 was a minor change as well - mostly you
needed a new DMG and PHB and screen. The 3.0 stuff was and
is still easily useable with it if you don’t mind a few
minor differences.
But this is nonsense. It’s done purely to nerf the third
party expansions and user base. Essentially WoTC got its
chain yanked by Hasbro(D&D is a blip on their revenue) and
they want WoTC to turn into a top-heavy corporation like
Games Workshop.
Well, it was good while it lasted.
September 4th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
I really hope that they are not using the new Star Wars Saga edition as forshadowing of things to come. The savings throws and skills systems are just bad. Basically, everyone becomes very similiar.
Combat is simplified, when it really doesn’t need to be. It is the d20 system, it wasn’t that complicated to begin with. Its not Rolemaster people.
Picking up new books for a game that is good, I have no problem for. But if the game is bad, and thats all that WOTC is going to support, then I will be very unhappy with the change.
September 5th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Everyone seems very mixed about whether they want to pay more for a new edition, not whether they have faith that there are improvements in it.
Look, no one’s forcing you or your gaming group to buy the new books. If you don’t want to spend money on a product, don’t complain that it costs money, just don’t buy it.
This is a paltry sum compared to what a Games Workshop gamer might spend on rules and game pieces in the same amount of time.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:17 am
I usually dont post to sites, most of the time this space is where people close their minds and not listen toeach other. name calling is usually resorted to. But I’m bored at work so I thought I’d add a little.
I guess I’m only partially surprised that thereis a new edition coming out. It seem slike the 3.5 edition got to the same point that 2nd ed got to where the left handed rangers handbook, or the moderatly longhaired wizards companion started to come out. And that is the real problem I have. I mean, its all good if a new edition is coming out, and I completely subscribe to the ‘if a book is crap then dont buy it” mindset.3.5 got to the point to where the game seemed to encourage people to base their characters ideas off of all the feats instead of the other way around. And while im all for adding some new classes with cool quirks to them, 3.5 has gotten to the point that every character idea had to have a new class associated with it. I mean cant one just be a fighter who uses knives, does there have to be a special class for it?
When these new editions come out I am happy with them, they have been a fresh look at a way to play the game. But they start putting out soo much crap. I mean I know they are supplimental books, but most of the supplimental books that have come out are filled uninspred things , at best, and downright stupid things, at worst.
That is the main reason I liked 1st ed, as a whole, the most. A majority of the published texts after the basic core rules were modules. And though I rarely ran from modules, the modules added to the flavor of possible dnd worlds with out lots a new rules being necessary. Now the emphasis is one lets come up with 35 new subclasses for clerics each with their special rules and spells, most of which through the game out of balance.
There for I guess I’m happy forth ed is coming out, at least for the frst six months until the system begins down the path every verson since 2nd went down, causing the system to become needlessly complicated until it falls apart under the weight of its own rules like 3.5 is doing.
Unfortuneatly the time it takes for this to happen seem to be accelerating with each passing edition…
September 6th, 2007 at 6:59 am
well said Moomaw.
i totally agree, with to many supplement books added to simple game
mechanics it becomes overly
complicated.
read up on the new rule changes
before you comment please people
im getting bored of reading
I DONT WANT TO PAY MORE bollocks…
its really really iritating.
constructive critisism i can handle
whinging i cant, if you like the
hobby then why are you complaining
anyway???
its a hobby and be glad WOTC isn’t
Gamesworkshop or you’d be paying a
hell of alot more for the books.
look at runequest, you needed to
buy two book at £25 each just to
make your character…. be grateful
we have a company that cares and
wants Your oppinions and is trying
to make the game stay enjoyable for
everyone.
September 6th, 2007 at 10:31 am
I second that moomaw! I was talking about that very aspect with Damionte just recently. I too feel the later supplements have been crap. New spells, new feats, new prestige classes - and often whole new classes. Why can’t they enhance the core product? Example - the Scout - why couldn’t most of the scouts abilities just be new options for the Ranger? But no, the skirmish ability seems to warrant a whole new class. I like what they did in PH2 - new class options.
So I think I’m looking forward to 4E as a way to get back to basics - try out some new ideas that have surfaced during the years with 3(.5)E. But I’m dreading the day 4E comes out with the “moderately long-haired wizards companion” (that was good!). The game has improves a lot since 2E so WotC has that going for them. I’ll pay - I’m happy to support my hobbies - but don’t think I’ll buy everything you publish, WotC! Buy the good stuff - find the PDF for the junk.
September 7th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Whatever, storytelling wise 2nd edition is much better and more flexible than 3rd… 4th probably will be 3rd in different packaging.
As far as I see it,… 3rd,… was 2nd with some solutions that player base comeout by themselves,.. like dealing with AC and Thac0, it already existed in 2nd edition… BAH.
If 4th,… will be done the way 3rd was done… I will be highly annoyed. I hope wizard will come up with something cool… instead a third rate remake of what was before(except for different book cover and tiny details).
September 8th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
I don’t believe that at all. I do not subscribe to the idea that less codified means less flexible story telling.
I much prefer the more codified system in 3.5 because it covers up for game masters lack of memory.
Good example is right here in the Rust Monster Crew. Geektom is an awsome story telling DM. His weakness though is that he’s a busy man. He hasn;t taken the time yet to familiarise himself with the current eddition rules. As such he has to make up rulings on the spot.
That in itself doesn’t ofcourse soudn like a problem except that he may not remember how he ruled on it the last time he did it. So you get a different ruling on the same situation. The lack of balance and consistancy in the game world tends to upset his players.
Not to pick on Geektom of course. In earlier game editions over theyears I’ve sat with another dozen DM’s who had the same problem.
Another common goof was when you sat down at a convention table, or met with a new group for the first time. Working with a situation which everyone is trying to rule differently since the odl edition rules didn’t cover it.
Yes some DM’s are great at ruling things on the fly but in my experiences most DM’s are not that great at it. They need the rules there.
September 8th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
I started at 3.0, LOVED 3.5… I, like alot of folks thought 3.5 was perfect. Complex enough to NOT be a videogame but simple enough for anyone with basic math skills to play. If i want “simple” I’ll play a PC MMORGP (Word of Warcraft) where finding a group for “simple play” is easy. I like DnD because its complex enough for real depth but simple enough for anyone to play. 4th ed is a step in the wrong direction IMO, but what I’m saying is moot, I’ll be sticking to 3.5 as i have TONS of material on ir.
September 11th, 2007 at 1:55 am
Well let me see -
I have a collection of D&D books which I bought for the sake of expanding my bookcase and trying older versions.
I have tons of AD&D (both editions) material including photocopies since as a kid I could not have paid for all the books.
I now own only core 3.5 edition books and a few e-books enough for the past years to satisfy my RPG appetite and my wallet.
And now they expect me to start buying from scratch; Again; On what pretext? Because the game got simpler?
The only thing I appreciate about this announcement is the move to a more online-oriented approach. Perhaps 5th edition could be delivered as cheap online upgrades and changes on existing electronic material. Perhaps an online versioning system? That I might consider. But I will not consider it the dice, grid, pen and paper phenomena that gave me a 20year old friendship that still goes strong but at least I coudl afford to keep up with the “changes” and the “evolution”.
September 11th, 2007 at 6:44 am
To all those little sniviling lemmings who complain about others who complain and gripe about the cost of each new POS splat that comes out.
I say GROW A PAIR and stop following the herd.
Just because you can’t figure out how to properly play the old editions because some TOY Store employee did not tell you how to (Yes Hasbro is just a toy store Kiddies) don’t complain that others have figured out how to.
If it was not for the old school editions then you nammby pammby game pad jockys would not even have something to cry about now.
If you want to waste you money on D&D the Gathering then so be it, but just remember that those that have played the old editions and that learned the rules ARE BETTER then you for doing so. We were able to see what rules were broken and then fixed them ourselves, we did not need a TOY Store Clerk to tell us how to do so.
If you really want to play a open game then try one where there are no classes and as players you have to work with the GM to make the world come alive, play Mutants and Masterminds
Now GROW A PAIR and STOP FOLLOWING THE HERD.
September 11th, 2007 at 9:40 am
I’m going to inject some reality check here.
PRICE: I’ve played D&D since the BASIC box, and purchased all the editions up to now. What’s that over the years? $3000? over 25 years? Even if it was $5000 that’s still only $200 a year. That’s about 2 weeks beer money for average college kid now. On a hobby with this kind of longevity, $200/year is not the issue.
RPing/Dumbing down rules: Okay, lots of numbers doesn’t mean better RPing. It actually gets in the way of it. I’m ALL IN FAVOR of less numbers, faster combat, and get on with the story. Who the heck wanted to teach people how to calculate THAC0S anyway? The Change from 3.0 to 3.5 meant a better integration of miniature combat - which IMO made the combat more interesting & visual anyway.
Rules cannot constantly expand: You can’t keep on expanding a rule set indefinitely. There must be a point of reset/contraction. Otherwise you have a totally unplayable mess AKA at the end of 1.5 and 2.
So:
I understand the time you have put in to learn the rule set. THAT hurts. But if you really don’t have time or inclination to learn another new rule set - keep what you have. You do NOT have to buy new rules.
September 11th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Forget Dungeons and Dragons altogether. Check out Troll Lord’s Castles and Crusades.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Bullshit
September 13th, 2007 at 6:23 am
Don’t want, don’t buy, why not go back to basic DnD or TnT
while you’re at it? Play don’t moan. Or move to Warhammer.
September 13th, 2007 at 7:58 am
As an old time d&der I’m pretty familiar with the rules. I didn’t learn them from a toy store clerk. With that being said, I still am looking forward to 4th edition. I know Wizards is going to give me a game that is playable. The biggest change from 3.5 to 4th isn’t the rule changes or the complexity, it’s the internet stuff. Wizards is very intelligently putting the game back into the hands of at least tens of thousands of people who for 1 reason or another have stopped playing the game. People who are married with children, who have jobs and mortgages, people who have had life get in the way enough that they can’t commit to a face to face semi-weekly RPG will now have a viable option to start to play again. This is genius on the part of Wizards. Instead of just marketing new players, they’ve figured out a way to potentially recapture a significant portion of their old audience. Again, I’m not too worried about the rules of the game. If 4th isn’t good, I can always go back to 3.5 (or any old edition for that matter)and play a face to face game. What I’m most excited about, is my belief that Wizards will put together something playable that will enable me to get together again and play with some of my friends that have moved away. It just might be 1980 for me all over again, and that ain’t bad.
September 13th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Well said Mike. And while they could have produced the internet stuff for 3.5, it is a good way to push people into the new edition. I’m not mad at them. But not only is it a good way to recapture gaming groups that have moved apart but simply gain new players, or people who have been waiting in the wings because they do not have a group to play with. There are guys in my gaming group that reminisce about playing D&D by themselves - making a party and playing through a module. Those days are coming to end for people like that.
September 15th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
4th edition had better be in d20 system. there are plenty of d20 supplements out there and it is a good roleplaying system in it’s versatility. i liked a lot of the changes from 2nd to 3rd, but if they try to simplify the game any more you might as well play hero quest. for any d20 system you can make your own classes, prestiges, feats, spells, powers, weapons, gear, magic items, etc… sometimes this is more fun than shelling out extra money for another supplement, which run 40$ for a 100 page book sometimes.
September 17th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
[…] those that only game in the electronic sense, this probably didn’t even register. But August was a big time for a lot of nerds. Here’s the […]
September 17th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
What a pack of tight fisted wimps. If it cost $200 to tool up again so what? compare the cost of D&D with a night out with the missus. Consider the hours of enjoyment D&D offers for a fairly low start up cost. I have nothing but scorn for the whingers. Spend a few copper pieces for unlimited treasure.
September 19th, 2007 at 3:23 am
“Even if the rules stay relatively the same, an update every 8 years doesn’t even remotely compare to MtG.”
“It was 8 years ago, thats almost a decade, can you guys count?”
“What most people don’t understand is something like this will happen about every decade, roughly.”
“Most you people are idiots. “Wah, I’m not gonna buy more books” crap is such a whiny waste of everyones time. It was 8 years ago, thats almost a decade, can you guys count?”
By the time of 4th edition’s release date, it will have been FIVE years ago. Check your publication dates again.
“I’ll bet good money that if anyone goes back and looks at the launch of 3rd edition, they’ll see mostly the same comments of “this is just a blatant grab for more of my money”…
Well, guess what? That’s the nature of successful games company who need to stay afloat. Welcome to capitalism.”
Last time WotC released an edition, it was as a cash cow to make up profits from the Pokemon CCG after the bottom fell out of it. This was even after canning everybody they could from their RPG department, even though it was the CCG department that screwed up, because the CCG department was where the money was coming from. In other words, dumping people who had nothing to do with the disaster in question. So you know where the priorities behind the 3.5 release really were.
“But this is nonsense. It’s done purely to nerf the third party expansions and user base. Essentially WoTC got its chain yanked by Hasbro(D&D is a blip on their revenue) and they want WoTC to turn into a top-heavy corporation like Games Workshop.”
“Also, most of you bitching about the money, know you stole it off the web and printed it out. Why do you think Wizards needs the money? Because of cheap assholes who cop an attitude that the product isn’t worth buying, but its worth stealing.”
Wizards is already a top-heavy corporation. Look at WotC’s history. Previously, in their CCG days, they were known for screwing the artists who put the pretty pictures on their cards, and for changing the rules of Magic: The Gathering practically every season so old players would have to buy new cards just to keep playing. And for producing a lot of collectible cash cows in general, like the Pokemon CCG, and that new Transformers constructible game that someone had to take 15 minutes out of their busy schedule that day to write the rules for. WotC did not NEED its chain yanked to start wanting to shovel more people’s money into their coffers. It comes naturally to them.
And frankly, worth stealing? That’s about all it’s worth. I’ve personally never downloaded one illegal PDF, but I’ve bought WotC products and quite often felt ripped off because of the poor quality of the material there. Look at the record: Psionics Handbook (crap), Races Of (crap), d20 Modern (utter crap), d20 Future (profoundly crap), and nearly all of the Star Wars d20 game (utter crap that doesn’t fit the source material). I bought d20 Modern at half off, and still felt cheated after I read it. Penny for WotC’s thoughts? Frankly, I want change afterwards. D&D is not the major force innovating this hobby, and never has been. I’ve seen more innovation in a year from other developers, some of whom were d20 developers who were perfectly capable of producing a good game with another ruleset, than I’ve seen from D&D in 8 years.
Guys, Wizards of the Cost (no, I didn’t misspell that) is in this purely for the money. I’ve talked to their reps at conventions, and early on they made no secret of that fact (though they haven’t said much about it lately, so I guess they’ve learned that gamers don’t respect profiteers). They’re not in it to further the hobby, or to make gamers happy, or even to publish ground-breaking rules (good thing, too, with the record they’ve got for it). They’re there FOR THE MONEY. And this is in spite of producing nothing original for nearly a decade, aside from rules, rules, and more rules. D&D is rules and little besides. Most of the stuff people remember was part of D&D long before 3.0. d20 Modern is rules and nothing besides (none of those sample settings are worth playing). Star Wars is rules and a lot of flawed source material, much of it published by a previous game company. Eberron’s the only original thing that they’ve published for years now, and they had to get somebody else involved for that! And his setting would’ve been just as good in a better system! But people keep smiling and handing over the green stuff. I’m as guilty as anyone else there.
But it stops now. I don’t mind playing other games. I did it for years after AD&D got stale, and I can do it again. Those core books get expensive after a while. Someone above said something about not following the herd anymore. I agree. And I quit.
September 20th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
I hate whiners. If you want to not play anymore thats fine, I’m pretty sure that those of us who do want to play don’t really care what reasons you have for not wanting to play, especially if it is about the money.
And why is WotC not allowed to put out anymore products without everyone yelling about how horrible a company is for wanting to continue to earn money? Would it be better if they called it something other than D&D 4th Edition? Maybe you would feel better if you weren’t buying a new version but rather a new product? Although…many of you probably bought a playstation… a playstation 2…and gasp! could it be! a playstation 3? Or insert any other console system in there. You probably are not running your PC on a Pentium 1…are you? Point made…I hate whiners.
September 23rd, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Hiya, Bus Driver. If you have a problem with people’s opinions, you don’t have to read them. I understand that WoTC wants to make money and streamline the system, and that’s fine. But I think that you’re getting so defensive that you’re missing the point; players have spent so much money on 3.5, that they feel exhausted about 4.0. And people are going to complain about what they choose, because they *can*, and it’s good for the company to know, thank you. =)
I don’t see what any of this has to do with console games? Left-field, anyone? =)
I only have the 3 core rulebooks for 3.5, so I am more inclined to check out 4.0. However, my other buddies have hundreds of dollars of books. Hopefully, the release of 4.0 won’t make them feel like they wasted their cash; if I were them, I’d be pretty mad. We’ll just have to wait and see how WoTC works this out.
September 25th, 2007 at 6:25 am
what is the problem here?….do you think that just because a new edition has come that your old books are going to disintergrate???
oh come on, you know there not going to, and you know that your all curious to see what 4th will be like, so quit whinging and deal with it.
everyone who has posted on this page knows that they will eventually buy 4th, becuase you were curious enough to look it up. so in the back of your mind you are looking forward to it….pretty simple really.
and im going to have to agree with Kasharic, im buying it and anyone who isn’t, doesn’t really like the hobby all that much.
September 27th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Although I am really looking forward to 4th ed and hope that it will be a nice improvement over 3.5; however I wont be buying any of the books until I have a group of 4th ed to play with.
Assuming that its not actually a massive setback which will make me want to cry.
Although at the end of the day, no matter how bad a roleplay system is its all about how fun the people you play with are. Thats what I believe anyway.
September 27th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Whining about price is not a valid opinion of the new version. And I made the comparison to console games because they are something that you buy (the console, extra controllers, games) then later you buy the newer version of the console, making the controllers and in some situations making the older games usless to the new system, and then later still you buy the even newer version of the console. Very similar to buying a version of D&D (race and class books included) then buying all new books for the next version that comes out. It happens all the time, things get out dated and then you replace them with newer versions and it just so happens that WotC has decided that it is time to release a new version of their popular game. And while I would love to have the new books for free, I know that is just not possible. And I know that 4th edition will bring interesting new features that I would like to use.
September 28th, 2007 at 8:54 am
Guys, have any of you read what is definately being
imput into the 4th ed?
i have, and the new system sounds exellent, but
i will agree with some points made, like its not the
system its the players that matter… very true
but with this new system it lets you focus less on
rolling dice and more on ROLEPLAYING, which everyone
should agree on is the most important part of D&D.
it make DMing easier, not so that younger people can
play (although it helps) but so that DMs can implement
their idea more easily and smoothly. which at the end
of the day makes better roleplaying. for those of you
that care about D&D you should look up the new system
before making judgements, it IS a better system and it
IS going to make roleplaying alot more fun.
read up on it, even if you only look at how the new
combat style works….just read it then post on here…
that way the comments that are put on this page are
constructive rather than pointless whinging.
October 7th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
The best thing they can do for D&D is to fire all of their
current “artists” and bring in some people with real talent.
The artwork (and I use that term very loosely) for 3rd edition borders on juvenile. I prefer a realistic style of illustration to the anime/WoW style they currently use. Bring back real fantasy artists like Keith Parkinson, Larry Elmore, Michael Whelan, and others who can make our fantasies and imaginations as lifelike as possible.
October 10th, 2007 at 4:39 am
IM STARTING MY LOVE (or hate…) AFFAIR WITH D&D WITH 4.0
4.0 will be my springboard into the world of D&D. I’ve held off playing the game before and i think now is the perfect time
if i find that i want to take a look into some older material or not thats an option im always free to take.
If new people come into the hobby because of this new release(like me) is that really a BAD thing? Does that automatically make me less of a gamer, a noob who cant handle math or a pokemaniac?
I’d like everyone to stop thinking in a very “clique”-y way. You’re NOT BETTER than anyone else because you played 1st Ed, 2nd or 3rd. Lets get rid of this “US” vs “THEM” mentality. Its that kind of elitism that makes people think ill of the hobby.
I get the feeling that some people feel that D&D (or any hobby) should only benefit themselves and feel betrayed when it does something that they dont agree with. Thats such a selfish way of looking at things
If new things like this didnt happen the game would have died out a long time ago. Or at least make it harder to get into.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
I’ve been playing since ADND, and it took me awhile to actually get into 3+, and only after 3.5 came out and the erratums started pilling up. Will I buy a 4th edition? I’d rather not. My players in the game I run just learned the 3.5 (and my house rules) I am not going to go to them and say: “Hey, here’s a new book, read and learn.” Besides, they’ll come up with a 4.5 soon enough because of this rushed, “let’s rob ‘em blind” piece paper weights will be filled with over sights and bugs. But I bet many people will buy it, and perhaps enjoy it. I simply am reserving judgment after at least 3 years 4ed is published. All a Dm needs really is the core books, a dice if he feels like it, and a great way to portray one’s imagination. Players simply need stats and an ability to follow the DM’s sight.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Yes, obviously.
“Does that automatically make me less of a gamer, a noob who cant handle math or a pokemaniac?”
November 5th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
For those who say new 3.5 material won’t be coming out, that may be true of Wizard’s official material (which is mostly crap) but 3rd party publishers should be able to continue putting out 3.5E material under the open license. Might be a decent niche market for some publishers who want to keep doing that and not switch to 4E. These other publishers are already putting out the best 3/3.5E material as it is.
November 19th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
I stopped buying D&D products when 3rd edition came
out, and I’m glad I did because the 3.5 fiasco would
have really ticked me off. I will probably not buy
4th edition, if just due to worries that a version
4.5 couldn’t be far off…
I completely agree with many of the comments thus
far: currently, D&D is really bloated and rules-
heavy. Yes, WotC deserves to make money, as any
company does. However, they have released a lot of
crappy and unnecessary material. I’d prefer to
give my well-earned money to a company that produces
quality products. WotC is not that company.
I always liked the term, “vote with your feet.” D&D
is not the only game in town; there are plenty of
better-written, worthier games out there to choose
from, without the pointless quantity and unbalanced
rules, that are nearly as easy to find as D&D and
more compatible between editions. You don’t have to
play D&D just because it’s the big kid on the block.
Try something new, you just may like it and never
look back.
January 13th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
[…] Rust Monster » Blog Archive » D&D 4th Edition Announced @ Gen-Con […]
January 15th, 2008 at 12:58 am
Well, here we go again. 4th Edition. Another edition of rules for Dungeon Masters to fumble through, while desperately trying to move a group of players along a torturous adventure path. I have been playing this game for 30 years, and the publishers still won’t recognise two basic facts.
Number 1, it’s the imagination, talent, and dedication of the Dungeon Masters, and Players that make the game work, and not twenty billion rules. Game mechanics are not a substitute for good roleplaying.
The second fact is that normal adults still want to play this game. When I use the term normal, I mean adults that have real jobs, a spouse, 2.5 kids, a dog and a mortgage. I simply don’t have the time to devote to learning a game system that has thirty or so hardback rules supplements, expansions, and campaign settings each book with an average 150 page count. Do the math!
I’m not a kid so I can’t blow off my term paper, and hope I can make it up on the final. I have responsibilities that can’t be shirked. When I do something for leisure I have to do a little cost benefit analysis. Is this worth my time? How much preperation do I need in order to do it? Is the enjoyment I receive from this activity worth the preperation I put into it?
I started playing D&D when it came in a little white box. The game was fun, but rather limited. I have to admit I wanted more detail.
The game had a lot of emphasis on role playing.
I got the added detail I wanted in 1st edition AD&D, but I also got some weird stuff too. The core books seemed poorly layed out, and had some wasted pages in them. Did I really need to know how to use a freaking bell curve to determine if my dice rolling was within the realm of accepted probilities? Not really. The game was still fun.
I looked foward to the second edition of AD&D because I thought they would streamline, and refine the system. You know, fix all those little errata issues, and drop pages devoted to explaining the use of bell curves. Then all of a sudden things got screwy when TSR introduced The Complete “fill in the blank” Handbook series. Suddenly the game ballooned. So much for refine, and streamline. The game was a little more complicated, but still fun to play.
Hells bells now here comes 2.5. I liked the core rulebooks. I could have lived without the players options books, but there were some good ideas in the material. Then TSR went on Setting creation binge. RED STEEL, BIRTHRIGHT,DARK SUN, AL QUADIM, JAKONDOR ….
Then TSR goes belly up, and here comes WOTC. I was skeptical of WOTC after they produced a terrible game called EVERWAY. A game that was nice to look at, but so bad most copies wound up as dumpster filler, or doorstops.
WOTC decide to chuck the old system and move to D20 instead. I guess they figured all of us saps that enjoyed the old system didn’t know what we were missing with D20. I honestly don’t think moving to D20, and revamping the game made it any better. The books were nicer to look at. The game became more about rules memorization than role playing. When 3.5 came along role playing pretty much seemed to take a back seat. Now when I eavesdrop on games
I hear almost no roleplaying, it’s all game mechanics speak. The game is almost entirely about hostile encounters, with two, or three lines of dialogue thrown in to serve as a bridge to the next encounter. It reminds me of a porn films where one or two lines of dialogue serve to set up the next sex scene.
Like I said, I have been playing the game for 30 years. I remember to this day all those sessions at the KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS, and in the VILLAGE OF HOMMLET. I remember lots of fun roleplaying sessions where we rarely touched our dice. If someone attempted something out of the ordinary the DM simply assigned a difficulty and rolled a D20, he didn’t consult a spread sheet, or the rules matrix on his laptop.
An undeniable fact of life is the simpler you make something more people will use it and more often.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:25 am
i hate 4th edition i dont want rules telling me how to talk to my enemies and i beleive gnomes will forever be player races. they are making it to much like an mmo and i hate mmo’s
February 9th, 2008 at 8:55 am
I know I dont have to buy it. I also know its a pain to convert old material to new styles. They didnt need a new edition to “make contact” with a new generation, theres not been a generational change yet.
Oh well, time to pirate a new set of books from P2P sites, I guess. Change all they want, I switched to piracy ’cause I wasnt paying for new versions of the same product, with outragious price-jacking.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Reminds you of microsoft, doesnt it? Too many new editions without bothering to really listen to what the problems are.
February 19th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
WEll I think the 4th edition can go suck my nuts because I dident even learn 3.5 and ok if i want to play a video game ill play that seriously it looks like online chess its extreamly gay they took away the concept of the game.If I wanted to play a Quality game I would play FF not this crap thanks WOTC for wasting my time and $ im sure this will go far.
February 21st, 2008 at 9:44 am
Those were some harsh words but I can guarantee they will make money whether you buy the new edition or not. The game will have its followers and the people who wish to support will buy books. If too many people stop buying books then the company decides that it is not worth their time to produce anything and we get stuck with the same version, not being printed, for years. Now I don’t know about you but I would prefer them to make a new version than stop making anything at all or continue making more supplements for a game that already takes 2 duffel bags to get all my books to game.
March 1st, 2008 at 10:20 pm
I’ve been playing D&D since I was 8, with the old red starter box as my first ruleset. I’ve been through the transitions from D&D to AD&D, to 2nd edition AD&D, to 3rd and 3.5.
I’ll not take one more step. My favorites where 1st edition AD&D and 3rd. I’m done. I retain all my 2e stuff including the core rules programs, I may replay it at some point, but I’m making my own ruleset for fantasy rpg, a mix of all the best things from various games, who knows, someone may even buy and publish it when I’m done.
But I’ll have 2nd